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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

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Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 332	Posted - 2015.08.27 08:57:09 - [1] - Quote Astral Azizora wrote: Dave Stark wrote: Astral Azizora wrote: Thanks to PLEX price this is one more account that won't be renewed in less than two weeks when my time is up. You can't make 40 mil per day? Really? Previously my activities were enough to pay for a PLEX on one of my accounts. The rising cost has now made the purchase of PLEX with ISK untenable for me, as it has for many others. If you think this isn't a problem for the game, then you are part of the problem. Webvan wrote: I spend more on one bottle of bourbon compared to a month of EVE. Well Mr. fresh forum alt, don't let the door hit you on the way out. Two forum cliches in one short post, well done Only takes 2 - 3 days in HS to make enough isk for a plex. Message me in game and I'll show you.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 342	Posted - 2015.08.31 14:58:59 - [2] - Quote Whitehound wrote: Tippia wrote: Whitehound wrote: No. You cannot make me lose a thing. Sure I can. I can make your buy orders fail, and your sales to either never happen or be done at a loss. Quote: You are suffering from the illusion that competing on the market was some kind of PvP. It's not an illusion. It is simply the purest form of what the term actually means. The only place where it doesn't is in that fantasy world you always build up when you have no idea how something works, where you constantly have to define the meaning of everything to make it conform to some strict norm that doesn't actually apply anywhere else. GÇªdo we have to go through the whole GÇ£passiveGÇ¥ definition againGÇª? Better explain to me how one can lose something that one never had to begin with. In PvP can I destroy your ship. A ship that is all yours and that will be gone if I succeed in destroying it. Although the ships in EVE are not real did I have to make an effort to own one. In trading do people often like to say that they have "lost profit", but it is just an expectation that got destroyed. You never actually made the amount you expected to get. All that is lost is your expectation of it, because your expectation is all you ever had at that point. If you expected to win in competitive PvE and it did not work and you need someone to blame then be my guest. And if you want to call it PvP instead, because somewhere did someone make a better profit then be my guest. It is just not my definition of it. Stay docked. Player versus Environment, Player versus Player. To compete with another player, over anything can be classified as a Player versus Player activity. PvP is not just the tiny little bit out in space where one player shoots another player. In fact it can be seen right now with the SOE LP. A lot of people are competing against each. The players that are better and faster making more money and the players who are not are not making as much money directly because of other players. Players are effecting each other. This is very much PvP regardless what you say.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 358	Posted - 2015.09.04 11:26:13 - [3] - Quote There are some items you can sell to NPC's however anyone is able to put up buy orders for those items and many make a lot of isk off that (Blue loot from WHs are an example of this, as is OPE)
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 358	Posted - 2015.09.04 11:31:09 - [4] - Quote Lucas, you are incorrect in your understanding of the term Instancing as it applies to MMOs in general and the specific difference between EvE and most other MMOs. There are MMOs out there that use it in a similar way to EvE however WoW and most WoW clones do not. While there are technical limitations on the upper limit of number of people you can fit onto a single grid in EvE, the point is that ANYONE can enter your 'pve instance' in eve, be that mission, complex, etc. while NO ONE you haven't invited can enter your instance in WoW.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 359	Posted - 2015.09.04 11:50:48 - [5] - Quote Any activity where I can force my will on you in one way or another is PvP. For example, warping into 'your' complex, mission or as you call it 'PvE instance' is an activity that is subject to PvP. In WoW I can not get into your PvE instance (Dungeon for example) Do you understand the difference? I don't think it can be dumbed down any more and I'm pretty sure even most of the 12y old WoW players can understand it by now, have some dignity.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 361	Posted - 2015.09.04 11:57:23 - [6] - Quote xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: why is this thread of steaming dog shite not locked? It's something to do, keeps us busy and doesn't involve us bashing CCP so they're allowing it.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 361	Posted - 2015.09.04 12:04:09 - [7] - Quote Incidentally although I agree with most of what Tipia is saying I would probably state it differently as a matter of being pedantic :P For example, yes accepting a mission and shooting red ~~crosses~~triangles is inherently a PvE action however unlike many other MMOs it can at any time be subject to PvP action by other players. I don't think this change the action from a PvE action to a PvP action (not taking into account what you do with the isk/LP after completing the mission) but is is super important that everyone understand what makes EvE so much different to other MMOs. It's the whole non-consensual PvP concept, something instancing in other MMOs are specifically designed to eliminate or mitigate. Once you understand that at any point in time you can be subject to PvP regardless of what you are doing or where you are, only then do you 'get' Eve (in my opinion)
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 362	Posted - 2015.09.04 12:13:36 - [8] - Quote Hahaha CQ, now THERE is something that's irrelevant if there ever was
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 362	Posted - 2015.09.04 12:29:29 - [9] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: Hahaha CQ, now THERE is something that's irrelevant if there ever was Mean if you have to use that to support you'r argument you're quite literally grasping at straws. It's still in the game, isn't it? I don't know, haven't seen it in years so who's to say? Because you know, irrelevant.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 362	Posted - 2015.09.04 12:33:43 - [10] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: Lucas Kell wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: Hahaha CQ, now THERE is something that's irrelevant if there ever was Mean if you have to use that to support you'r argument you're quite literally grasping at straws. It's still in the game, isn't it? I don't know, haven't seen it in years so who's to say? Because you know, irrelevant. The answer is "yes". Please learn about the game you are playing. Whoosh over your head

Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 362	Posted - 2015.09.04 12:41:15 - [11] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: That's Lucas Kell y'all are arguing with, why are you surprised? Heh I'm just enjoying how he slowly changes his tune over many pages and/or just gives up on some of the arguments. Also how he misses the finer points of human interaction.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 364	Posted - 2015.09.04 13:07:25 - [12] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: Lucas Kell wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: I don't know, haven't seen it in years so who's to say? Because you know, irrelevant. The answer is "yes". Please learn about the game you are playing. Whoosh over your head It wasn't over my head, I just went with an equally sarcastic response. It's clear you hate the CQ, thus it doesn't exist. Very clever. No again, you misunderstand. I do not hate it, I do not like it, it has no effect on me at any level whatsoever. This is actually the worst thing for a dev. If someone feels strongly over something one way or another then at least there is a feeling. At least the Dev made me feel something and impacted my life in some way. If something is just as good as if it didn't exist in the first place... well then that would probably the worst thing for me if I was a developer.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 366	Posted - 2015.09.04 13:26:41 - [13] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: I challenge anyone to give me 3 examples of "competetive PvE" in EVE, that hold up under scrutiny as separate from and NOT either PvE or PvP. Can't be done, because it's a subcategory (and also because it's called "competitive PvE". Anize Oramara wrote: No again, you misunderstand. I do not hate it, I do not like it, it has no effect on me at any level whatsoever. This is actually the worst thing for a dev. If someone feels strongly over something one way or another then at least there is a feeling. At least the Dev made me feel something and impacted my life in some way. If something is just as good as if it didn't exist in the first place... well then that would probably the worst thing for me if I was a developer. But that's your opinion of it. Some people love it. I don't like nor hate faction warfare, I could accurately describe my feelings as "I nothing it". Does that mean I can claim it as not a part of, or irrelevant to the game? No see you can't compare it to FW because FW effects you and me even though I've only ever taken part in it for a week, tops, many years ago. It effects the value of my LP at various corps right now, it effect the price of modules both you and I put on our ships, it affects everyone in the game. CQ does not affect me. You using CQ does not affect me. In fact it affects no one in the game if every single person uses it or no one uses it. It's different (and thus currently irrelevant) to every other mechanic in Eve where it effects, or can effect, other people. Kind of like how you're trying to compare instancing between EvE and other MMOs.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 366	Posted - 2015.09.04 13:28:14 - [14] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Tippia wrote: No, it's not. That's the whole point. You cannot avoid competing with other players in anything you do. Neither can you in wow. You kill a boar, that's a boar someone else can't kill and loot introduced into the economy. Unless that boar was in a private instance and you sell the loot to an NPC and use the gold to buy potions from an NPC or paid to fix your armor that was damaged in that instance. In that whole thing at no point in time can anyone effect you in any way whatsoever. This is not the same in Eve as the pocket you shot the NPC in is accessible by others, the loot needs to be moved from point a to point B, etc.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 366	Posted - 2015.09.04 13:33:59 - [15] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: Unless that boar was in a private instance and you sell the loot to an NPC and use the gold to buy potions from an NPC or paid to fix your armor that was damaged in that instance. I don't know of any private instances in WoW. Also, that exists in EVE. If I take courier missions to earn isk and I spend that isk on NPC items like skillbooks and blueprints, then I am having the same effect. Hah private instances are a thing in WoW and in most MMOs. Plenty of them in GW2 that I can personally attest to for example. Also that courier mission? You can get ganked from point a to point B. Bam player interaction.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 366	Posted - 2015.09.04 13:41:40 - [16] - Quote I;d agree with the newbie systems thing if not for the fact that the ships and ammo and drones, etc needed to run missions or mine or do most of anything are still sold by.... players! Also you can't get a lot of the skills needed to manufacture a lot of what you'll need without leaving the newby systems. Manufacturing itself as well is affected by other people in many ways (indexes, available slots, mineral costs, BPCs). Oh right research to get BPCs form BPOs, again, means competing with other players for slots or pos locations etc. etc. etc.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 366	Posted - 2015.09.04 13:47:03 - [17] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: Lucas Kell wrote: that's how you're claiming that mining is PvP. go look at codes killboards and tell me miners are not engaged in pvp. (pvp of the lowest form but still pvp) thats not pvp its merely Player Killing (PK) They are not engaged in PvP, they are subject TO PvP. Unless they managed to get drone damage on you, then they're kinda engaged in PvP. But yea, definitely hot Player versus Player action happening
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 366	Posted - 2015.09.04 13:52:34 - [18] - Quote Tippia wrote: Lan Wang wrote: its not though pvp and pk are 2 different things The only difference is consent (and possibly outcome). Beyond that, you can't have PK without PvP. Exactly, that's kind of Eve's thing, consent (or lack thereof) in everything you do.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 366	Posted - 2015.09.04 13:59:05 - [19] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: PvP: Player vs. Player A fight between players or groups of players. PK: Player Killing The murder of one player by another for grief, amusement or material gain. its like saying a serial killer is a soldier... Talking about misused terms and a complete lack of understanding what those terms means...
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 366	Posted - 2015.09.04 14:05:20 - [20] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: Lan Wang wrote: PvP: Player vs. Player A fight between players or groups of players. PK: Player Killing The murder of one player by another for grief, amusement or material gain. its like saying a serial killer is a soldier... Talking about misused terms and a complete lack of understanding what those terms means... well enlighten me then Check the last, I dunno, 40 pages?

Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 366	Posted - 2015.09.04 14:14:06 - [21] - Quote xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: Lucas Kell wrote: And I know what you'll say, that's very unlikely. Yeah, about as unlikely as a WoW player having no interaction with other players, markets and non-instanced content while playing WoW. but lucas,,,,,,,,, WOW sucks giant donkey balls. Eloquint but not. To expand on what Tippia said, you can progress and reach 'end game' (loose term in eve but not really in WoW) in WoW without much if any player vs player interaction. You'd be lucky to get past .05% of eve without any Player Vs Player interaction. Whats the number of systems again?
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 366	Posted - 2015.09.04 14:35:54 - [22] - Quote Is linking to TvTropes a bannable offense? J/K http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlayerKilling Interestingly enough there is not a single mention of Eve online in that article!
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 366	Posted - 2015.09.04 15:03:24 - [23] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: Jill Xelitras wrote: The PvE mechanic of mining is embedded in the PvP mechanic of flying armed space ships through space.Therefore mining is part of the PvP character of the game. wut? The action Mining (Shooting space rocks specifically) is a PvE action, however you can not mine anywhere without at any point in time being possibly subjected to non-consensual PvP because EvE is a PvP game. (Newbiw systems excluded because sanity) Selecting a rock (or NPC) and pressing F1-F8 is a PvE ACTION. However spending the isk on the market, selling the loot, spending the LP and selling the items, refining the loot and manufacturing stuff and selling THAT or getting ganked WHILE shooting space rocks/NPCs are all PvP actions.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 367	Posted - 2015.09.04 15:44:03 - [24] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: Selecting a rock (or NPC) and pressing F1-F8 is a PvE ACTION. However spending the isk on the market, selling the loot, spending the LP and selling the items, refining the loot and manufacturing stuff and selling THAT or getting ganked WHILE shooting space rocks/NPCs are all PvP actions. Agreed... thus EVE is a game with interspersed PvE and PvP mechanics. Correct? Point is you can't do PvE without being exposed to PvP because eve is a PvP game. Saying Eve is a PvP game is the first thing any new player should hear. This means when you tell them about the PvE elements within the game, they understand that those elements are completely integrated into a PvP framework. Do you agree with that at least?
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 371	Posted - 2015.09.04 15:51:58 - [25] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: By telling people EVE anything except the whole brutal truth about its PvP nature, is a recipe for dissatisfaction and dissappointment, especially for players who are used to a very different kind of MMO. Lying to them or cushioning the truth from them, is a disservice. And by simply saying "it's a PvP game" you're not telling them the truth, you're giving them a cut down version of it. You are in fact telling them the ONLY truth of Eve.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 372	Posted - 2015.09.04 18:14:39 - [26] - Quote M'Hael wrote: "I trained for a t2 cruiser, and it was just horrible long. Then I found out that I hated flying the ship, and I just gave up. No way was i going to spend months training into another ship, and maybe figure out if that ship suited me. It simply made me quit the game." Quote from a newer player. We should totally remove SP, just have everyone be able to fly everything. am i doing it rite?
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 379	Posted - 2015.09.10 14:52:13 - [27] - Quote The skill system is such that you can get 80% as effective as a vet in most ships or areas of the game (sometimes more than 80%) for 20% of the time or, heck even less. It also only takes a few months (dependingon ship) then you are on the EXACT same footing as a vet 10y old. Then it's only personal experience and skill that differentiates them. Unless that's not 'fair' either. I know we should have characters be less effective the older they get so vets don't get too far ahead of newbros.

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